How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

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How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby starkid » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:18 am

Unfortunately, RT's version was lost with the rest of our old forums. It was out of date anyway, so I am writing us a new guide :D

This is a placeholder while I work on the guide, fiddle with formatting, that sort of thing. Its a bit mathy and disorganized at the moment, so I don't really suggest that you read it.

This is a guide for individuals who want to learn how to make meat by farming.

Intended audience: New players who are level 13 and above, who have completed most of the quests in the game (you should have at least finished the council quests and killed the naughty sorceress).

Lets jump right in:

In order to farm efficiently we need to optimize 3 things, location, equipment, and diet. For the purposes of this guide I am going to assume that you are adventuring in the castle in the clouds in the sky. It may not be the most profitable place to farm, but it is an easy target. The monsters drop a nice amount of meat, and the item drops autosell for quite a lot too. Note: you should leave the wheel in the castle map position (procrastination giant guarding the back door).


How To Calculate the Value of Item and Meat Bonuses

For the kingdom of loathing, item and meat drop bonuses are additive. This means that 2 pieces of equipment that give +30% meat each will give you the same amount of meat as one piece of equipment with +60%.

Calculating Bonuses for a Single Monster

Formulas:

Value of +meat% = Base_Meat * Bonus

Value of +items% = ( Item1_Value * Item1_Drop_Rate + Item2_Value * Item2_Drop_Rate + ... + ItemN_Value * ItemN_Drop_Rate ) * Bonus

Calculating Bonuses for a Zone

First, figure out the value of a 1% bonus.

+1% Meat: ( Monster1_Base_Meat + ... + MonsterN_Base_Meat ) * .01 / Number_of_Monsters

+1% Items: ( Item1_Value * item1_DropRate +... + ItemN_Value * itemN_DropRate ) * .01 / Number_of_Monsters

These formulas only work in zones where each monster is equally likely to occur.

Now all you have to do is multiply.

+20% meat = 20 * 1%_Meat_Value
+30% items = 30 * 1%_Items_Value


Note about item drops

Because you can only get one of each item, the value of additional +item drop modifiers begins to drop off after a certain percentage.

An item will reach a 100% drop rate at a 100/(drop rate) - 100 % bonus. An item with a 25% drop rate will max out at 100/.25 - 100 = 300%. Item drop bonuses beyond this amount will not yield any additional meat for this item.



Overview of the castle in the clouds

All of the information for the castle can be found on the kol wiki here.

Combats:

All monsters drop roughly 150 meat. A 1% bonus = 1.5 meat.

Item drops:

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A 1% item bonus = 1.19 meat

Note that I have assumed you will smash equipment, auto sell the nuggets and sell the wads in the mall for the minimum price. In practice the wads sell for more than that (currently 700 meat), and it may or may not be worth it to malus the nuggets into wads.

Average base value of a combat adventure is:
150 (meat drop) + 119 = 269 meat


Non-combats:

Image

* Leaving the wheel alone does not use an adventure

Average value of a non-combat adventure is 423 meat.


Calculating Combat Rate:

To figure out how much meat we expect to make per adventure, we need to know what our combat rate is. The base rate for the castle is 75%, but since one of the non-combats is skippable the effective rate is a bit more than that.

Every time an adventure is rolled we have a 75% chance of getting a combat, 25% * 2/3 chance of getting a non-combat, and 25% * 1/3 chance of getting the wheel. Every time we encounter the wheel the adventure is re-rolled, and we have a 75% chance of getting a combat, 25% * 2/3 chance of getting a non-combat, and 25% * 1/3 chance of getting the wheel again.

Combat Rate = .75 + 1/3 * .25 * .75 + ( 1/3 * .25)^2 * .75 + ( 1/3 * .25)^3 * .75 + ... + ( 1/3 * .25)^n * .75 + ... (sum of an infinite geometric series)

Combat Rate = .75 / ( 1 - 1/3 * .25 ) = ~ 82%


Average meat gained per adventure (base rate):

average_combat_gain * combat_rate + average_non-combat_gain*non-combat_rate
= 269*.82 + 423*.18
= 297 meat

So if you spent 200 adventures in the castle with no item or meat drop bonuses you would expect to get 200*297 = 59,400 meat. It would take you about 16 days to get a million meat. Does that seem slow to you? Want to make meat faster? Then read on!



Familiars

A listing of familiars, along with their various formulas, can be found here

Leprechaun - adds a (220 × weight)^0.5 + (2 × weight) - 6 percent meat bonus. For a 30lb leprechaun, this is 135.2% which turns into 150*1.352 = 202.8 additional meat per combat adventure.

Baby Gravy Fairy - adds (55 × weight)^0.5 + weight - 3 percent item drop bonus. 30lb fairy = 67.62%. The first item drop maxes out at +143% items (original G), so we don't have to worry about diminishing returns quite yet. 119*.6762 = 80.5 meat.

Cocabo - Kind of an interesting familiar, it steals meat during combat (even from monsters with no meat drops). Averages 5.4*weight - 8.8 meat per steal, and has a 1/12 chance of stealing each combat round up to round 10. 30lb cocoabo = 10/12*(5.4*30 - 8.8) = 127.7 meat per combat adventure.


Clearly the leprechaun wins with 202.8 meat. Please note that there are better familiars to use, but they all cost a lot of meat, or are harder to get, so they are outside of the scope of this article.


Buffs

Probably the easiest way to add on meat and item drop bonuses, there are a few really good buffs out there that you can get for almost nothing from buff bots.

Polka of Plenty - An AT buff that adds 50% meat drops. Adds 75 meat/combat.
Fat Leon's Phat Loot Lyric - adds 20% item drops. Adds 23.8 meat/combat.
Carlweather's Cantata of Confrontation - +5% combat rate. Depends on your total item and meat drops.
Empathy of the Newt - +5 lbs of familiar weight. Depends on the familiar. Adds 25.5 meat/combat for leprechauns (but we already have this factored in)


Equipment

Equipment comparisons are available on the wiki here and here.

It is helpful to keep in mind that, for the castle, +1% meat = 1.5 meat, +1% items = 1.19 meat (up to +143%), and +1 lb = ~4.5 meat for leprechauns. This allows for an easy basis for comparison between equipment with different kinds of bonuses. I selected the pieces of equipment in the table below because of their availability and relative cheapness, it is by no means a complete list.

Image


Example outfit:

Hat - ancient turtle shell helmet
weapon - bar whip
offhand - cup of infinite pencils
pants - poodle skirt
accessory1: pulled porquoise pendant
accessory2: lucky rabbit's foot
accessory3: lucky rabbit's foot

for an outfit total of +79% meat, +14% items, and +2 lbs = 144 meat/combat

Total expected meat per combat:

269 (base) + 144 (outfit) + 98.8 (buffs) + 202.8 (familiar) = 714.6 meat


Now that we have our total meat per combat worked out, we can calculate how valuable the + combat buff is.

current meat per adventure:
714.6*.82 + 423*.18 = 662.1

Adjusted combat rate:

frequency = .8 + .2*.8/3 + .2^2*.8/9 +...
= ~ 85.7

adjusted meat per adventure:
714.6*.857 + 423*.143 = 672.9

So this gets us just over 10 meat per adventure more.

More to come...
Last edited by starkid on Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:26 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0

Postby starkid » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:19 am

--- Saved for the guide ---
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0

Postby ema_nymton » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:23 am

With the advent of the new Nemesis content, there are many items and skills that are class-specific, and quite easily obtainable for farming. I don't know if anyone's done a synopsis of these things, so I'll do my best to get it started. (Starkid, feel free to delete/move this if it doesn't fit with your guide.)

Seal Clubbers... don't have much in the way of farming-related stuff. The only thing that would qualify are the seal eyeballs from the Nemesis cave (they give a small item drop bonus), but these are probably not worth farming unless you're going for the trophy.

Turtle Tamers... have access to equipment that increases familiar weight, and when it comes to farming, more weight = more meat. The Elder Turtle Shell (+3 weight) and Galapagosian Cuisses (+5 weight) are excellent options, but the prize is the fouet de tortue-dressage, a one-handed weapon that adds a whopping 10 pounds to familiar weight. With basic buffs, that's a 53-pound leprechaun, or over 200% bonus meat!

Pastamancers... have access to combat ghosts. The most useful, from a farming perspective, is the lasagmbie, which increases meat drops. Another interesting choice is Boba Fettucini, which (at high levels) replaces regular combats with sandworms, which drop very high amounts of meat (as well as the extremely valuable but rare melange). Unfortunately, only a limited number of summons are allowed per day. Another small benefit is the Canticle of Carboloading, which is worth a few extra adventures every day.

Saucerors... no real class-specific bonuses here, though if you sell scrumptious reagents in the mall, the extra summons granted by your Epic Accessory are worth a bit of meat.

Disco Bandits... are probably the best farming class. Why? Two words: disco combos. Disco Nirvana and Disco Concentration provide meat and item drop bonuses, respectively, and the new combos obtained from the Nemesis quest are even better! The only concern would be MP usage, but by level 13, there's plenty of equipment that gives sufficient MP regeneration. Also, a DB's Ultimate LEW gives a 23% bonus to meat drops, the highest bonus attainable for a weapon slot outside of clan dungeons or Mr. Store.

Accordion Thieves... have great skills. Unfortunately, they are all easily available from buffbots, and Accordion Thieves don't really have any intrinsic abilities (other than pickpocket) or special equipment that aids in basic farming. However, if you're lucky enough to have learned an epic song (especially Thingfinder or Chorale), then the revenue from selling song recordings could be substantial indeed.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0

Postby MisterJiffy » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:32 pm

ema_nymton wrote:
Accordion Thieves... have great skills. Unfortunately, they are all easily available from buffbots, and Accordion Thieves don't really have any intrinsic abilities (other than pickpocket) or special equipment that aids in basic farming. However, if you're lucky enough to have learned an epic song (especially Thingfinder or Chorale), then the revenue from selling song recordings could be substantial indeed.


Pickpocket *is* pretty win for farming. Also access to the still if you have SHC permed is an extra 20-30k. The accessory from the Nemesis Quest also gives +1 song slot, which might be handy if you have/use thingfinder/chorale.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby ethereal oblivion » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:27 am

[Placeholder]
I will be placing a crapton of information here when I have time.

Also:
What should a farmer eat:
http://houeland.com/kol/diets

Where to Farm:
http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/ ... ostcount=1

Where to check prices:
http://items.ofloathing.org/index.php
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby frozensun » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:07 pm

Just wondering, would it be worth it to replace one of the accessories with a Bling of the New Wave? Too tired to do the math right now, but the second pickpocket is helpful, plus the +mp each turn would fuel disco combos.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby SwissStopwatch » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:57 pm

Pickpocket math is a nightmare to calculate, and then deciding how valuable it is would be a nightmare because it would depend on your item drop %s. My inclination, though, is to think that since the extra pickpocket apparently is only available if the first one fails, there's not a lot of gain. (Even it it did let you steal a second item, I bet that would be true).

Regen -is- useful for people going all-out to script the DB chains in, though, like you said. The only otherwise optimal outfit that gets it for free is the full hodgman set w/hamster... otherwise, it's a fun choice of which equipment slot you pick to get it. But you need something that gives a lot more regen than the bling, and possibly two of those somethings. I'm not exactly sure which equipment pieces would be best here (The plexiglass pith helmet and the bag o' tricks probably deserve special mention as the two things I can think of, other than the hamster, that significantly help with both this and increasing farming revenue otherwise), but the bling would probably not be one of them. Also, an item that reduces MP costs might be more beneficial, if you're using all the potentially helpful chains.

Anyway, yeah. How many layers of complication is this guide intended to cover? There are a lot of possible outfits and gear upgrades out there, with various levels of effort or wealth required to get them, and it's hard to know which ones do and don't belong.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby ethereal oblivion » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:03 am

The wiki has +item and +meat outfit breakdowns basically going from "rediculously easy to get" to "You already don't need to farm if you have this gear" levels.
I'd say that hodge gear should probably be the gold standard, since it's not time limited content and has uses outside of farming.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby peacemaster » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:47 am

I was looking the other day at farming and calculating meat gains. I came up with a spreadsheet to do the maths for me. If anyone fancies, it can be found here.
At the moment it only deals with the castle and some really innacurate analysis of melange. No idea if it is useful for anyone but me though.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby JOssiE » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:03 am

ethereal oblivion wrote:I'd say that hodge gear should probably be the gold standard, since it's not time limited content and has uses outside of farming.

Except that if it's called "how to make your first million meat, then it's kinda hard to have hodg gear already. That requires a million meat invested in karma + loot fees. Hardly your first million anymore. ;)
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby ethereal oblivion » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:48 pm

JOssiE wrote:
ethereal oblivion wrote:I'd say that hodge gear should probably be the gold standard, since it's not time limited content and has uses outside of farming.

Except that if it's called "how to make your first million meat, then it's kinda hard to have hodg gear already. That requires a million meat invested in karma + loot fees. Hardly your first million anymore. ;)


Yeah, I guess I'm also interested in expanding this guide to include farming past your first million. Really, the generic "take lep to castle" really does hold true for the first mil.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby Kahdrick » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:16 pm

Not really for your *first* million, but since getting olfaction I've found that the oasis with a lep (even including the wasted adventure every 6 turns) blows away the castle due purely to the high mall value of the many drops from there (sniff Blurs for drum machines). And of course that can lead to melange farming...
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby SuperChuj » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:28 pm

Kahdrick wrote:melange farming

and this can be done with a leprechaun and beefed up +meat (instead of the traditional +item approach)
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby otb » Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:10 am

How is it possible to obtain Fouet de tortue-dressage? I have searched wiki but said nothing on it :(

Thanks in advance!!! :D
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby JOssiE » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:26 am

otb wrote:How is it possible to obtain Fouet de tortue-dressage? I have searched wiki but said nothing on it :(

It's a quest item for the TT nemesis quest. You can only get it as a TT and it disappears when you ascend.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby otb » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:08 am

which one do i need to complete?
I search nemesis on wiki andit said this:Turtle Tamer - With the fouet de tortue-dressage equipped, use the skill apprivoisez la tortue on six guard turtles with hats in the Outer Compound. It is necessary to use the skill five times on each of them.
but doesn't tell me how he got it

thansk alot
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby JOssiE » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:05 pm

Searched the wiki for "nemesis". Here are the full instructions: http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Nemesis
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby silvaknight » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:53 pm

SuperChuj wrote:
Kahdrick wrote:melange farming

and this can be done with a leprechaun and beefed up +meat (instead of the traditional +item approach)

I for one totally agree to this. Considering that the item drop for melange is ridiculously low, you might want to switch to some +meat drop buffs :)
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby Mr Crawford » Sat May 01, 2010 3:10 am

First, I must commend for this excellent guide, even if we haven't lost the old one, it had to be updated.
I would like to run through the list of effects and buffs which increase your meat/item drop rates and familiar weights. I'm drawing from the lists at wiki's "Maximizing Your Meat/Item Drops" pages. I also assume we're farming at the Castle, so the base meat drop is 120-180.

Sinuses for Miles: 200% meat for 10 turns
120-180 meat * 200% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 1968-2952 meat or 196.8-295.2 meat per turn
As of now, inhalers are ~6000 at the mall, and I don't see any way for them to drop into 2000 range. If you get one via semi-rare, better to sell it.

Preternatural Greed: 100% meat for 30 turns
120-180 meat * 100% * 0.82 combat rate * 30 turns = 2952-4428 meat - 2750 for AFUE scroll = 202-1678 meat
Alternatively, you can summon for 3 AC drinks which are ~1100 each as of now. Which one is more effective will fluctuate with AC drinks' prices. If they are in (2952/3)-(4428/3) = 984-1476 range, you can use either. If drinks fall below this range, meat buff becomes more profitable, if rise above, better to summon and sell them.

Low on the Hog: 100% meat for 20 turns
The cost of tempura cauliflower completely negates any meat bonus you can get from this, plus you will have to readjust your diet to accommodate it

Cravin' for a Ravin': 100% meat for 5 turns
Requires gongs and special adventure, not worth it

Carrion' On: 60% meat for 20 turns
Again, the cost of item negates the bonus

Same for all candy heart, snowcones, cupcakes and oyster eggs, if you have them, probably better to sell in the mall

Polka Face: Assuming you're level 11+, 55% meat and 55% items for 10 adventures
120-180 meat * 55% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 541.2-811.8 meat
1.19 item * 55% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 536.69 meat
total 1077.89-1348.49 meat
Effective only if the mall prices for Polka Pops drop below the minimum of this range, as of now they are ~2500

Winklered: 40% meat for 20 turns
Once per day, and requires a quest done in certain way, but completely free

Can't be a Chooser: 30% meat for 10 turns
Cost of begpwnia negates the meat bonus

Wasabi Sinuses: 30% meat, -10% item, -1 substat per fight, for 10 turns
120-180 meat * 30% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 295.2-442.8 meat
-1.19 item * 10% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = -97.58 meat
295.2-442.8 meat gained - 97.58 meat lost from items - 150 for nasal spray = 47.62-195.22 meat or 4.762-19.522 meat per turn
One of the few items which is actually worth using while farming if you don't need to powerlevel

Flashing Eyes: 30% meat for 10 turns
Requires a white Xanadian, which is expensive, and gives drunkeness

Sticky Fingers: 20% meat for 10 turns
120-180 meat * 20% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 196.8-295.2 meat
Bag of cheat-Os goes for ~1000 in the mall, so meat bonus is negated

Blackberry Politeness and Cranberry Cordiality are ineffective even for a Sauceror

For familiar weight buffs, all aside Empathy are not cost effective, even Pet Buffing Spray costs more than the bonus it gives. I have the calculations, but I feel they are unneeded.

For item bonus effects, it is also safe to skip the majority of the list, only things worth mentioned are

Dilated Pupils: 20% item drop for 20 adventures
If you completed Mysterious Island Arena quest as a hippie, you can cast this once a day instead of Winklered

Peeled Eyeballs: -20% meat, 15% item, -1 substat per fight, for 10 turns
120-180 meat * -20% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 196.8-295.2 meat lost
1.19 item * 15% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 146.37 meat gained
If you also consider the 200 meat cost of the eyedrops, this is clearly loosing you meat
Interestingly enough, even if you combine this with nasal spray, for +10% meat and +5% item per turn, the cost of the two (150+200=350 meat) would still negate the bonus.

tl;dr
As for effects, get free or philanthropic buffs from clan/public buffbots, get the meat/item buff from Mysterious Island Arena, use Knob Goblin Nasal Spray.
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Re: How to make your first million meat v2.0(under construction)

Postby JOssiE » Sat May 01, 2010 6:28 pm

Mr Crawford wrote:
Wasabi Sinuses: 30% meat, -10% item, -1 substat per fight, for 10 turns
120-180 meat * 30% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = 295.2-442.8 meat
-1.19 item * 10% * 0.82 combat rate * 10 turns = -97.58 meat
295.2-442.8 meat gained - 97.58 meat lost from items - 150 for nasal spray = 47.62-195.22 meat or 4.762-19.522 meat per turn
One of the few items which is actually worth using while farming if you don't need to powerlevel


Shouldn't you also subtract the base meat you'd get anyway? And just count how much extra meat you get from the wasabi sinuses effect?

So: 295.2-442.8 meat/turn - 120-180 meat/turn (base meat gained without buffs) = 175.2-262.8 meat/turn extra cause of the sinuses .. then subtract whatever sinuses cost per turn.. that's 15.. and I guess they work anyway, but your calculations confuse me.. :)

Ehm is that lost items / turn or ? And then you subtract the full cost of nasal spray, or per turn? Now I got lost... Definetely not 4.762-19.522 meat per turn in the end?

*confused*
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